Before creation was, the Father, the Son and Spirit were in perfect union and harmony. They were three persons yet one entity, that we have coined as The Trinity. The Father could not have a thought that was not shared by the Son and the Spirit. The Harmony and Union of the Trinity, is the foundation to understanding our adoption, God’s ultimate purposes and our eternal destiny. But something funny happens when it comes to the message of Salvation.
The general message of Salvation as taught by believers is that God the Father is Holy, and he cannot tolerate sin. So he sent his son Jesus, to bare the sins of the world on the Cross. While on the Cross, God the Father poured out all of his wrath, anger and judgement upon the Son. In the heights of this exercise, Jesus suffered the abandonment of the Father, as God was too holy to look upon Sin, and The Father forsook the Son on the Cross. All of this, so that now God can be merciful to us and save us from eternal hell. While the details may vary a bit, but this tends to be the general theme of the modern Gospel.
There are a number of problems with this thinking. Firstly, Jesus Christ is the express image of the Father (Hebrews 1:3), they are in union, they are One with each other, but Jesus never had a problem being in the company of sinners while on the earth (Luke 7:34). Are we proposing that Jesus could do something the Father could not do?
Second, in that presentation of the Gospel, we create a broken Trinity, where the Father is set against the Son, and breaks unity. In part, we are saying that because sin is more powerful than the very nature of God, it can bring division within the very nature of a Triune Being. In other words, Sin is more powerful than God’s very nature and oneness. Something seem very wrong with this understanding.
Thirdly, this account basically means that Jesus saved us from God the Father.
The ultimate problem with this account is that it implies that somehow, the Sacrifice of the Jesus Christ changed God the Father from being angry at humanity, to being merciful with humanity. Again, this type of imagery produces a schism within the Character of God, and confusion in the minds of the believers. Did Jesus come to satisfy the demands of justice that was present in the Father, but yet Jesus had no such demands? Did Jesus’ sacrifice change the Father somehow?
I believe the Bible offers a much clearer pictures of the Gospel of the Godhead, working together to redeem mankind.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
I don’t have all the answers, but I believe the Gospel is not about saving us from God, It is about God saving us from the Work of Adam. The sacrifice of Christ didn’t change God somehow, rather I believe it changed humanity and made us new creations that can now have fellowship with God through faith in his Son. I believe God was not set against the Son in a dysfunctional Trinity to deal with sin, rather God was in Christ working in union, going through the abuses with him to bring humanity out of Adam and into Christ.
Just something to think about.
Greg Boyd discussing Penal Substitution.
Hey Brook, thanks for sharing bro! I too believe that there is something terribly wrong with the idea of penal substitution for the very points you made here. However, when you say that we all, as all of humanity, were made new creations by the sacrifice of Christ, where does that leave us with the born again experience? I no longer believe that we have to answer for Adam’s sins, but rather our own. That we all sin of our own accord and therefore we have to be born again, believe in faith in the Gospel. However, if we are already new creations, all of humanity, where does that leave Holy Spirit in all of this? Was he already there inside of us before we believed in faith and had our hearts changed from stone to flesh? This is my primary questions and issue with believing that all of humanity are new creations without ever believing in faith in the Gospel. Your thoughts bro!?
Love ya man! Take care!
Hey Michael, that is a great question…
I will be transferring other articles on the subject over to this blog shortly. But I do believe that the work of Jesus Christ has Objectively changed all men. But how will Men know about this new life, unless we preach and share the Good News of what Christ has done, that leads us into their Subjective experience. So there is the Objective work of Jesus Christ, and the Subjective Experience that enjoy the benefits by Faith.
I have more in my article here: https://brookpotter.org/by-his-blood-is-grace-just-another-way-of-saying-universalism/
Hope that helps brother!
Michael,
Great questions. The thing is Yes.. we are all made a new creation by Christ Jesus and his finished work, however
you have to accept him and be born again to fully receive it. It’s not just some blanket covering for all of humanity
whether they accept him or not. That wouldn’t even make sense. The point is yes you have to give up your life to receive his. Also, yes you answer for Adams sin and your own unless or until you are born again…then it is washed away. The good news is however once you become one with Christ, you are no longer under the curse, the law, sin, or death. Even sickness and disease has no place in you but also neither does sin. There is really no such thing as generational curses to a born again believer. If your born again, you are made new and covered in his blood..ie. your generation only goes back 1…to Jesus Christ and He isn’t cursed! We were created for so much more, and it’s not about being religious or legalism. The key is relationship! It’s being born again..transformation of mind..body…soul..and spirit! We must be transformed by the renewing of our minds!!
Nick makes some decent points, but the contradictions he’s making are typical problem with people trying balance the work of Jesus Christ and not fall into Universalism. So he said we have all been made new, but it’s not a blanket covering for all, and later he says If you’re born again you are made new. In short, what he, and most preachers teach is that Adam is Greater than Jesus. That Adam’s sin affected the whole world, and threw creation int chaos, but Jesus’s sacrifice only affects those that believe.
Jesus Christ, as the Last Adam, is the vicarious representative of all humanity. We have all been included in his life, death, burial Resurrection and Ascension. The Adamic race has been taken into death, and we can be recreated in Christ. The sins of All humanity have been dealt with at the Cross, just as all sickness and Disease has been dealt with at whipping post. These are the Objective Truths from God’s Perspective.
Where Nick is correct, is that even though Jesus has done these things, unless someone knows about them, or secondly, believes upon them, these benefits will do a person no good. So our faith is in response to what Jesus has already done, and we enjoy the benefits unto Salvation. For those who do not know the truth, they are under the influence of darkness and are blind, which is why we preach to them. The issue is always in the Mind, not in a sin nature, which Jesus dealt with at the Cross.
The objective truth is, humanity was saved by Grace (Ephesians 2:5), long before we as individuals experience the subjective truth that we were Saved by Grace through Faith (Ephesians 2:8). Similarly, Righteousness by Faith Romans 3:22, happens when we believe that we were made Righteous by His Blood (Romans 5:9). Faith is agreement with what God says is already true about us, because of what Jesus Christ has done.
God has forgiven the sins of the entire World (Colossians 2:13, 1 John 2:2). There only one sin that would condemn a person, which is the sin of Unbelief, or not accepting the work of what Christ has done. This is great news, but it is news none the less. We can tell the murderer, rapist, child molester homosexual, that their sins are forgiven because of Jesus Christ, and God has accepted them, and that would be objectively true. When they believe it, the can enjoy the subjective truths of the new nature and fellowship with the Holy Spirit etc. News is something that has already happened, that we tell people about. If it only became true after you believe, it wouldn’t be news, it would be a prophecy.
I hope that helps.
Brook,
I have heard these teachings by certain ministers before but I don’t believe them to be correct. You’ve taken my words completely out of context buddy, that was not what I said at all. The Gospel may be confusing to you, but it’s plain and simple to me. I don’t see how you think it makes no sense….but then again Jesus said you must have child like faith. When you operate out of the Holy Spirit who is the teacher and helper he will teach you all things. Yes of course, Jesus died for everyone and would like everyone to be saved…but the obvious truth is not all of humanity IS saved. There is no way anyone in their right mind could think that. It’s the same with healing. Jesus paid for all our healing at the whipping post hence why we can go around healing people. But obviously there are still plenty of sick people. You see…it’s very simple. .it only applies to those that take hold of it. This is similar to Universalism. This is called Free grace.. What you are saying basically is there is no such thing as sin, because Jesus did away with it..lol!
That is totally totally false!! You have obviously not dealt with demons, spiritual warfare, or casting them out. You wouldn’t be able do that and teach this. Anyway, I’m not being mean and I’m not upset, in love im just saying. I think this is one of the main issues with this modern society and the modern church is we are putting too much emphasis on grace and we’ve forgotten we are soldiers of the cross in a spiritual battle!! It’s time to wake up people of God!
Let me know if you have any other questions.
Nick,
I was very much where you are now. But I have full confidence of the Christ in your to guide you into all truth. What I teach is definitely not universalism, but it is very difficult for people with Western thinking to understand. We always try to qualify verses, by saying well, Jesus “Paid” for our healing, when they verse actually said he “by his stripes we were healed.”
Similarly, It is not I that says that God has saved all humanity, it is the Bible that says God has saved all humanity.
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
It’s so funny, we have no problem accepting that Jesus has healed everyone as an objective truth, that we use faith to manifest into reality, but we always draw a line when the bible says the same thing about everyone being saved. We even teach that the greek word SOZO means Saved, Healed, Delivered, etc, but we always qualify each them, when the bible doesn’t.
The reality of what Christ has done has not changed, none the less, unless we know what he has done, we cannot believe, and if we do not believe, none of these truths have any effect in our lives subjectively. Just as Jesus objectively healed all people, we still see sick people today. When we agree with the truth of what Jesus has already done, our subjective faith in what he has done, manifests what is already truth about them.
The same principle applies to salvation. Jesus has objectively saved all men as he has healed all. None the less people perish for lack of knowledge. Just as he has he has objectively saved all men, does not mean that men will not experience torment when they leave this earth. None of these truths can manifest without our Agreement or faith.
I spent many years battle demons, before I understood how simple this stuff was. I would bind, breaking curses, long inner healing counselling, demanding the names of prince devils and all this jazz. Until One day, I discovered that Jesus has already made everyone free from all demonic power at the Cross. My Deliverance sessions today happen in seconds, with no input from the individual and a declaration of truth, ”Jesus set you Free.”
None the less, I know the struggle of the western church, as I’ve spent most of my life in it. I respect where you are my friend. If you are really interested in Truth beyond the consequences, you’ll discovered there is more to the Gospel. Unfortunately, most people have a reputation or a congregation or Church boards to answer too, and they will usually not go beyond what is acceptable with them. I don’t know your situation, but if you want to know if what I’m saying is true, just ask the Father, and enjoy the ride. 🙂
Brother Brook,
God bless you brother. Thanks for your kind words. Does Todd and Pete teach this? I’ve never heard them say or teach this? I’m actually not the religious, dogmatic, or judgemental type. lol. Im just a big teddy bear. I do thank you for explaining this better, so it seems like we are actually not that far apart, and also are born the same year. Perhaps its better to explain my background. I too was in church my whole life and dedicated to him before birth, again as a baby and again during my childhood before eventually entering in on my own faith, decisions and knowledge. I have been in ministry my whole life but was very religious. Because of having such a powerful hunger, dedication, and love for the Lord..praying and fasting daily. .etc He led me into the wilderness ( so to speak) and trained me himself. I was in many ministries and many denominations until God eventually led me to non denominational ministry. Even in that, I disagreed with a lot. I pastored churches all over the world, was a missionary, ..an evangelist and eventually ordained a Bishop and did crusades in Africa.. I eventually left religion altogether and just went out and started my own ministry similar to Todd and Pete many years ago. It was during this time God changed my theology at least 50- 70% or more. Revelations God has showed me during my travels. If you check out my teachings on my website and Facebook, u will see what I mean, what I believe and what I teach. I was highly sought after preacher..teacher and evangelist, had powerful anointing and revelation knowledge, but I got rid of my titles because I don’t believe in that. I eventually moved to Vegas and started my own ministry 6 yrs ago. I have a local radio ministry as well. Anyway, over time and through my wife getting sick and no one could heal her(including me and many healing ministries, I came across JGLM..John G Lake ministries. .it was there I learned a completely new mindset a new covenant mindset and studied all of John Lake, and Curry Blake’s teachings. I partnered with them, went thru the DHT , and started living and teaching from a new covenant perspective. It’s been awesome. .powerful and amazing! I now teach Kingdom Principals and the Gospel of the Kingdom. Recently this year, after fasting and praying for months for more break through, I came across Todd White and Pete Cabrerra jr videos and was just floored!! It was like finally I found what I had always felt, known, and many times taught myself but wasn’t walking and living it like they did! I spent hundreds of hours watching their videos. .teachings. .healings. .etc and crying the whole time ! This is the God and Christianity I’ve always searched for. ..not some dead religious mumbo jumbo. I also was careful about false doctrines since you know as well as I there is so much mess out there now. Also witchcraft is now big even within the church! Another ditch we need to be careful about! Anyway..I’ve tried very hard to get in touch with Todd or Pete or get them on my show to no avail. I’ve recently partnered with another local ministry here Dominion Fire where we are carrying on Todd and Petes work locally here doing street healings etc. I recently also learned of you through his site.
Anyway, I just love the Lord brother…am totally committed and sold out to him, I don’t live for myself. I want to see and do much more and I like where Royal Family and Neck Ministries is going! I would like to discuss this more with you and get more Information. I am humble and God has already changed my theology significantly over the last many years. I just want to be more free in Him, operate in more power, victory, authority, love and wisdom. I beleive all believers should be operating in the fullness of Holy Spirit such as Todd does..and this is the lifestyle I’ve sought all my life. We learn new things each day and I love to learn and discuss the goodness of God. Perhaps our discussion was a divine appointment. Whats the best way to contact you? I love your heart, and what your doing. Let’s keep in touch.
Brother Nick
After re reading over your posts…I think we are saying the same thing. Don’t get me wrong..I’m not saying a person has to believe to be healed. There are plenty of atheists that are healed by Jesus, similarly they are already saved by Jesus but just don’t realize they are. I think I missed understood what u said. I read into it too much and sounded like you were getting into Univeralism, or maybe I didn’t explain my point correctly. I apologize for the mis-communication. Anyway, yes I agree and see what you were trying to say. I’m just like you, I left the religious legalism and over pious (what I termed “churchianity” ) as God led me over the years into his fullness, joy, and freedom…and you are correct the ride is awesome! We are free in Christ!
Hey Nick,
No need to Apologize my friend, and thank you for sharing your story.
I’ve also been affected by John G Lake Ministries, and I also did an interview with Dominion Fire recently. They are great people. There are some things that Royal Family Believes, but we do not preach in churches. In the words of the Apostle Paul, most in the church are carnally minded and they are on milk, and we cannot give them strong meat. Many are still coming to grips about healing, far less these sorts of subjects!
Rather we share it in more personal areas such as our Blogs etc, for those who are seeking more information, and we trust the Lord to connect the right people with our resources to help them along.
I’ll be transposing more of my teachings and resources onto this blog soon. So, keep checking for more, and feel free to ask any questions and comments. I don’t claim to have it all figured out, but i’ll share what I know. 🙂
Here’s my interview on Heal the Sick, https://brookpotter.org/heal-the-sick-podcast-interview-with-brook-potter
Love you bro, we’ll keep in touch!
Yes! Exactly! ! I know what you mean! There are a lot of things I can’t share in churches or on the radio because I know people are not ready for it and won’t receive it. They will think it’s false doctrine. I’m there with you brother!
Yes definitely we’ll keep in touch!